July 8, 2021 - EyeClarity Podcast
For today’s episode, I had the pleasure of talking with Cherionna Menzam-Sills, PhD a prenatal and birth therapist.
She began teaching Embodied Embryology through somatic movement in 1997 as part of her doctoral studies in Pre- & Perinatal Psychology, which led to her teaching at Naropa University and the Santa Barbara Graduate Institute. She has taught and facilitated Pre- and Perinatal Psychology/Therapy, Continuum, a mindful movement practice, and Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapy globally, often with her husband, Biodynamics pioneer Franklyn Sills. Biodynamics involves perceiving and augmenting embryological forces to support health and well-being throughout the life span. Her background includes extensive study with Pre- and Perinatal Psychology pioneers William Emerson and Ray Castellino, and Continuum founder, Emilie Conrad, who authorized her to teach Continuum in 2007. Cherionna has also facilitated therapeutic movement and body awareness for over 40 years as a Dance/Movement Psychotherapist, Occupational Therapist, Massage Therapist, and Prenatal and Birth Therapist. She has authored two books, The Breath of Life: An Introduction Craniosacral Biodynamics and Spirit into Form: Exploring Embryological Potential and Prenatal Psychology. Cherionna is committed in her work & life to embodied presence.
You can learn more about Cherionna and her work at:
www.birthingyourlife.org – Cherionna’s website
www.resourcingyourlife.org – online school of Cherionna and Franklyn Sills
Enjoy the show! If you want more, sign up for my newsletter at: www.drsamberne.com
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
book, emilie, eyes, continuum, perinatal, people, psychology, ray, babies, embryology, resourced, body, embryo, midline, present, called, franklin, fluid, teaching, sherry
00:05
Hello, everyone, its Dr. Sam, I’d like to welcome you to my EyeClarity podcast. This is a show that offers cutting edge information on how to improve your vision and overall wellness through holistic methods. I so appreciate you spending part of your day with me. If you have questions, you can send them to Hello@drsamberne.com. Now to the latest EyeClarity episode. Hey, everybody, it’s Dr. Sam, and I’d like to welcome you to another EyeClarity podcast. Or do I have a special guest today she’s one of my colleagues and I’m so excited to bring her on. Her name is Cherionna Menzam-Sills PhD. And let me give you a little background on Cherionna, she is immersed in pre and perinatal psychology led her to teaching at Naropa University in Boulder, and also the Santa Barbara Graduate Institute. She is a biodynamic craniosacral teacher, along with her husband, who Franklin sills. He’s one of my heroes have his books actually right there. And I, I refer to his writings quite a bit. Sherry Anna also has studied with William Emerson, Ray caster Leno. And Emilie Conrad, we’re going to talk about our connection with continuum. And she’s a wonderful teacher movement and body awareness therapist, dance movement, psychology. I mean, she’s just done so many, many things. And she’s also an author, and she has a new book out. This is why we’re bringing her on. And the title of the book is called spirit into form exploring embryo illogical potential, and prenatal psychology. And I have it right here. I’ve actually turned a lot of people on to her book. And so she’s so generous to come on today to share riona Thanks for joining us. And my first question is, why the book? What’s behind it? Give us give us some some background?
02:52
Oh, well, thank you. First of all, thank you for the lovely introduction makes me smile. And I didn’t know you were a fan of Franklin’s. So that’s really sweet to kind of bring him into the room. And he’s certainly an influence in in my work on the book. So why did I write this book, big book, you know, 560 pages. It took me 17 years to write this book. I realized that I started taking notes on it. About 17 years ago, just before I met Emilie Conrad, and I was reading. She hadn’t published her book life on land yet at that point. And she had a kind of pamphlet out that was called life on land. And so I was reading that, and I was just so inspired, which happened every moment that I spent with them away. And so I had to give you a little background for the book. I had. Let’s see, where do I begin? So in in while I was studying somatic psychotherapy, at Naropa University, I was introduced to the field of pre and perinatal psychology, and something in me just went, that’s it, you know, this is my thing. And after many years of really intensive work with it, or through those many years, I realized it was you know, they say we teach what we most need to learn. And I had a lot of healing to do in that area. So the thing that was really going to help me to really do that healing to focus on it was to do a PhD in pre and perinatal psychology. And such PhDs didn’t exist yet. And apparently, the second person in the world to get a PhD in pre and perinatal psychology and so I did it through the union Institute where you design your own program. And it seemed to me that embryology was a really important aspect of pre and perinatal psychology. You know, as a somatic psychotherapist, I don’t separate body and mind, the emotion, psyche and body, they go together. And it seemed to me that an embryo is constantly changing, you know, a bit like an adolescent, they’re constantly going through changes in their body, and everything they’re learning and experiencing is happening through their body. So how could I leave the body out of looking at their psychology? So I created a course for myself to study embryology. And I had, as part of my Somatic Cell Therapy, I’d been learning about body mind, centering BMC. And the form of it that I learned was actually adapted by Susan a potion who you may know about, who developed body-mind psychotherapy. And she was our, our teacher and Roper, which I’m very grateful for. And so in order to study embryology, I gathered a group of us who had studied with Susan, we had actually done extra training with her. And I went through all these embryology textbooks. And so Sam, you’re a doctor, you’ve been through embryology textbooks, I’m sure you probably understand them because they’re in medical ease. You know, they’re not in English.
06:38
But I tried to understand them. And I drew pictures and I they made mind maps and, you know, got it to a point where I could present it to the this little study group that I created. And then I’d go and present it. And we together found ways to explore it through our bodies. And after I forget, if it was six or eight weeks or something like that, we all decided it was so powerful that it needed to continue. So I began teaching classes I call them body and embryology. And I did that for a number of years until I came to Emilie and continuum. And as soon as I started doing continuum, I realized continuum just naturally takes us into those embryo illogical states. And, you know, we’re melting the patterns and coming into our fluidity. So I started teaching it through that. So the book is kind of building on that. And it’s a combination of looking at embryology, some embryo illogical milestones, and the psychological experience that little ones are having in the process, and how that affects us throughout our lives, and what we can do about it. So my, the other piece that that came into it, is Franklin’s in influence. I wish I had been teaching biodynamic, craniosacral therapy, when Franklin and I got together and fortunately be with him really deepened my understanding of it. And one of the things that I learned about in that work is that our health is always there. You know, even if we’re thinking we’re deceased, there’s a problem. Clients usually come in with their problems. But there’s always health there. And there’s always what I call our original potential. So that’s part of the book also. So I wrote this because I want people to know about it, you know, I’m so passionate. But I see how profoundly that time of life influences us. And how just even just having some awareness of it can begin to shift things, we can start to have some choice, or realize that we are at choice. Not just
09:03
so thank you so much for that answer. It helps me and I think it also helps anybody who’s reading your book, I’ve turned a lot of people on in Santa Fe, who are sematic educators and craniosacral therapists and occupational therapists who I work with where we you know, we help kids in the spectrum disorders and I certainly want to get to that but give me some of your insights working with Ray caster Lino and and you know what you learn from him and how you incorporate that into your philosophy. Dr. Ray, that’s a big deal right. He just passed What an amazing and and maybe for listeners who don’t know about Ray, just a brief bio on him. I mean, he was a pioneer and Chase, I just, you know, loved his work. So tell me a little about him.
10:13
Yeah, I just want to acknowledge my sadness, as you mentioned that, you know, very close to Ray, and had great opportunity to work closely with him in his clinic. When I lived, I lived in Santa Barbara for a while where he was, and he was going to write the foreword for my book, but sadly passed away. That could happen. So I had the other person I had had in mind to write a foreword for my book, when I first started, it was Emilie. Sen. She’s also not here. So there’s a little, you know, some shadows related to my book. But yeah, Ray, I feel so grateful to have had these incredible mentors, you know, like Emilie and Ray Ray brought to pre and perinatal therapy, what little ones actually need. And he, he noticed what he needed working with people in order to stay present. And he, through working with families with babies and little children, he developed ways to help them to really stay present to be resourced. And, you know, to not be constantly being overwhelmed, and just going into their history, but being able to be present with it. And he brought that into working with adults, and developed a really powerful way to work with adults where, you know, the history of pre the field of pre and perinatal psychology, or therapy is it mostly includes very cathartic work, you know, people going back into their history and getting lost there. And I did years of that. So I know, you know what it’s like, and it can certainly enforces sight. Yeah, yes, can increase insight, but what we know from modern trauma work. And research is that it can also reinforce old trauma patterns in our nervous systems. And exactly. And Ray’s work takes us a long ways towards not doing that, too. So he worked, he worked with a number of principles that we I run small wimps around process workshops based on his, what he, what I learned from him, what he does, and what he did. And I also bring in more mindfulness, I have a strong mindfulness meditation background. So find that really helpful and also continue to help really be present in their bodies. And so one of we work with a set of principles in these workshops that re developed. And an important one is around self regulation, being able to be aware of when you might move into overwhelm, when things might become too much or too fast, you just pause, you ask for a pause. And you don’t have to do anything in particular, but just slowing things down. Because little ones need things to go a lot slower than we as adults do. And when people are working with their history, they often slip into a little one state. And so they can be very easily overwhelmed like little ones are.
13:51
So that’s a beautiful, beautiful description, and you bring in something so important, which is self regulation. And it’s not really talked about in when you go to the doctor, the doctor is not going to talk about that. And yet it’s such a powerful skill. And you know, the things that you’re teaching and promoting really help people deal with their trauma deal with their you know, their nervous system getting overwhelmed. And then of course, the fluid body. And this is where Emilie enters. And so how do you bring continuum in to this? I mean, we know the primordial anatomy is part of it. And you know how we meld into our fluid body, but I’d love to hear in your words, where continuum fits in to your philosophy.
14:51
Well, it’s fluid. It’s like it infuses every bit of a philosophy as Emilie. Yeah. Yeah, I have a lot of cool quotes from Emilie in the book, but she’s also between the lines everywhere. Yeah. For sure. So I think you know, continuum comes in and several different ways. And one is, you know, I was talking about self regulating. So continuum slows us down. When and people who are working with Steven porges work by magic, you’re familiar with the social engagement, nervous system and ways to come out of our defensive nervous systems and into social and where we can socially engage and be present and accurately assess safety and present time. So slowing down can help us to do that, for one thing. And the breaths and sounds we use and continuum tend to elongate our outbreath, which takes us into a more regulated state, just like that. That’s one of the things they recommend for the Vegas nerve. continuum, so good at that. But as we slow down, we start to come out of what Emilie talks about us the cultural anatomy where things are, or our tissues are more dense, our thinking is more dense and narrow. You know, we’re more, we’re more rigid. And, and fast, as we slow down, we start to melt and come into a more fluid state where I could feel you resonating with that. And, you know, we stop being so linear and so narrow, and we, we start spreading and melting and becoming a lot more like an embryo. Where’s your sense of wholeness and midline, amid space, something organizing us and a lot of our patterning, our history can dissolve. And we come back to something more essential, which I call our original embryological potential, you know, you think about our beginnings as a tiny unicellular organism. And it develops into these complex bodies and psyches. You know, how do we do that? is greater intelligence and we call it bio intelligence. In biodynamics. We talk about intelligence with a capital I think it’s the same thing. biodynamics takes us into a very similar state. So it’s continuing. So to me, it’s a natural way to enter into, we just naturally enter into that kind of embryonic state. And it can be incredibly nourishing.
18:02
Thank you. We are here with Sherry onah mensagem sills, and she’s talking about her new book spirit into form, exploring embryo logical potential and prenatal psychology. And those of you that will hear the podcast or are watching. You can’t help but slow down and get into your fluid body. He mean, Sherry, Elena is exuding that energy, and I’m just tracking that as well. So it’s, it’s really a, such a healing space, the field that we talk about, and everybody that’s part of the podcast right now, you’re getting that. And that’s what I talk about a lot. And people go, huh, what is that, and then they start to get it. So I want to talk about vision a little bit. And there’s a question that you and I discussed. I’d love to get your take on it. I’m happy to answer it as well. Can prenatal and birth trauma relate to vision issues? And can pre and perinatal therapy or increasing awareness help? So I’d love to get your perspective on it. And yeah, so you have the talking stick, go for it.
19:26
I think it’s a very fluid stick at this point. Yeah. Yeah, I just I thought you know, talking with you, it would be interesting to look at that question, and how might our pre and perinatal experience affect vision? And I, you know, I’m, I’m interested in the psychology, that’s, you know, how the eyes form and all that kind of thing. You’re probably much more knowledgeable about that than I am but what I’m really especially interested in is the psychology So, if we have the experience, when we’re little, even in the womb, of really being seen and received and welcomed, it might be easier for us to see and receive and welcome. But many of us don’t have that experience, or we don’t have it as fully as we need it. taking a breath without one. So, you know, if, when a pregnancy is discovered, for example, it’s confirmed, often even parents that really want a baby, have some degree of ambivalence. Second happens so quickly, it’s like, oh, my God, you know, I just wanted to I have, I’ve had so many clients who are pregnant, tell me, I just wanted to take that trip to Asia first, you know, before you know, do that dream thing first, or, you know, buy the house first, or get married first, or, you know, grow up a bit first, whatever it was, you know, these babies can take us by surprise. And even if the parents eventually come to a place of celebrating, being really happy to have their baby, that helps. But there’s a womb that happens for the little one, who at the time of discovery is completely dependent on especially their mother, welcoming them are dependent on her for their survival. So there is a kind of shutting down that happens. And I’ve heard, and I’ve encountered people who remember, as a little one, knowing that their presence when they were discovered, the presence was discovered, it was going to cause some problems. So they stayed small, you know, we tried to not be seen. And, you know, when we’re compressed in, withdrawn, it’s hard to see anything that’s out there. That’s part of why we withdraw. And all creatures do that, you know, when their sense of danger, we withdraw. So it’s kind of like having your head in the sand, you know, how can you see if you’re withdrawn? You can’t really evaluate the danger, or welcome anymore? And so my sense is that really early time, and another things that can happen along the way, you know, even before birth, can affect, like, how willing or able are we to see what our family is like, or what the world we’re coming into is like, how we are welcomed or not welcomed? You know? And we were talking about the social engagement system now, hiser is such an important part of that. So, especially at birth that comes, it’s online, that systems online at birth, you know, are we like when I was born, my mother was and I were completely out with anesthesia. And it was the 50s, you know, that in order to give the mother some rest, they took the baby away, you know, so I didn’t get to see anybody really, you know, and unfortunately, that’s changing the bed, babies aren’t automatically taken away as often now, what still happens, and there’s emergencies or separation, there’s drops in the eyes, I’m sure you probably talk about Pat, you know, things that set a template for how we see or don’t see in our lives. So they’re just some thoughts that I’ve had, and I’m curious, you know, what your experience might be with that also,
24:05
with the eyes originate very early in gestation, some say 17 days, you know, we see the optical vesicles starting to grow out from the brain. So every tissue of the eye is brain tissue. And it’s such a, an absorbable part of us, and yet it’s not really acknowledged in a lot of ways. One of the things that you described this not wanting to be seen and pulling in is something called myopia, nearsightedness. And we’re at an epidemic around nearsightedness right now because of our near focusing. And the main emotion around myopia is fear. I don’t trust I pull in, I tighten up I completely And then fast forward to an adult and this is why people are developing all these eye diseases because their tissue is compressed Emilie is to talk about, you know, the eyes are one of the most unrealized tissues of the body. And a stigmatism is a twist a body twist. So when you come out of the birth canal, and your body is twisted, this is a stigmatism that makes more strabismus where one of the eyes is crossing. In Chinese medicine psychologically, the right eyes, the father eye, the left sides of the mother eye. So the right is turning in the infant is turning away from his father. Now, there could be a lot of reasons why that might occur. Then there’s lazy eye, you know, one eye that is not seeing as clearly as the other eye again, you can look at the mother father relationship and the children absorb through their eyes, their parents relationship, there’s the midline problem, where the two eyes are not tracking together. And there’s a underdeveloped midline that goes way back to you know, gestation. So there are a lot of visual cues and signals that maybe don’t get developed. I’m in the process of writing a blog right now on a somatic eye. And I am bringing in some of Dr. porges, his work on polyvagal. And how it affects the vision, we know affects speech, language, auditory, right, but that vagal experience, what happens with the vision piece. So you know, there’s a lot of intersections that you and I have, and which is why I was so excited to read your book. And it just explained so many things for me around the prenatal birth and bonding times, and what you’re teaching and what you’re presenting and bringing all these different aspects, you know, bringing the biodynamic craniosacral in, I mean, that’s one of my main therapies. You know, I have my massage table, right next to my eye exam equipment. And when I do an exam, I also do cranial and then see what how does that affect the nervous system in the eyes? As an example? That’s a it’s a nice combo. But this, this particular topic is vast. And maybe we’ll need to have you back on. Is there anything else you want to convey to our audience? About? You know, what you’re teaching in this field? I know, it’s so vast, but if you could pick one thing that, you know, maybe parents could take away from, you know, what your what your messages, I think, I think we would love to know what your wisdom is.
28:16
Well, it’s tricky to pick one thing is, I agree, we could talk about all this for hours or days. I think just playing off of some of what you were saying, I was reminded of some of the things I learned from Ray catalino, about eyes and trauma, and how we see it in babies. And so for example, when a baby is, is traumatized, they’ll have trouble crossing the midline with division. So you stand, you know, on one side, they could see you, but if you move over to the other side, they can’t follow you. And they can’t go through the midline. And he also used to talk about how babies learned by his word glommed and gone with their eyes to whoever was there. And that if you move away, if you shift your attention too quickly, it startles them. So, I just I’m thinking, it can be helpful for parents to be aware of those kinds of things. And, you know, the importance of slowing down with with children, especially babies, you know, really little ones. Importance of communicating to them. If you are going to shift your attention, I’m just going to shift my attention now. You know, or I’m going to pick you up now. You know, we’re going to leave now. Whatever it is. So they’re not startled by whatever is happening, because they don’t have the ability to figure it all out. And also, they don’t have the ability to differentiate like we do. So I can differentiate between what I’m feeling and what you, you know what you’re saying, This is me, that’s you, hopefully I can do that. And I can differentiate between, you know, I was talking about what happened at my birth. But I’m here now, you know, I’m not any subtypes. Now, I can be present here now that I’m here with the wonderful Dr. Sam Berne, you know, now, right? 20 was it? June 30 2021. So I can differentiate. And that can be incredibly helpful for us to do with ourselves because any of us can slip back into a little one state and get lost, we can remind ourselves, it’s like, well, yeah, I’m such a such age. And here I am, look around like, I’m safe. You know, this, I’m okay here. And parents can also do that with their children. You know, when when I work with babies, they immediately want to tell the story of their birth, you know, it’s a big event, even if it wasn’t dramatic. Don’t you want to tell somebody when you’ve had a big event happen? You know, it’s exciting. But they can easily get lost in it. Because I can’t differentiate. So, you know, things come up, I can say to them, yeah, that’s how it was back, then, you know, you were really scared, angry, whatever it was back then. And you have Mommy’s here now, you know, you’re safe now. And you don’t have to tell the whole story right now. So that, you know, they can start to slow down and be regulated, they need us to help them regulate. So if I can put in a nutshell, you know, that I think there’s really, yeah.
32:09
Yeah, that’s, that’s really essential, I think. And I appreciate you sharing that, because it’s so important, you know, transitions, you know, making a change from one to the next and not being shocked into it. And I think we all need to keep practicing that. I mean, I know I do, and how easy it is to just get so involved in your own story. And that’s it. And yet, wait, we’re in the here and now. So I’ve experienced that also. So what you’re teaching, I can validate that because that’s exactly what your work is about. As many, many facets. So we’re coming down to the end and two things. What events and workshops Do you have coming up? And how can people connect with you?
33:10
Yeah, we’re moving into a transition. Yes, we are. We’re birthing out of this event, into whatever’s next in our lives. But it isn’t the original birth where we’re okay. So I have lots of things coming up. Like I mentioned, I, I facilitate small rooms around process workshops. And so I actually limit those to four people plus an assistant, that really intimate, safe, and I’ve been doing this online, over it’s a pandemic, and it’s amazing how well they work online. Some people feel that she works better online, because people are at home and they feel resourced. And, you know, yeah, that’s gonna cost as much travel. Yeah, I feel like that time away. I also I’ve just set up a course I’m really excited about which is called spirit into form, being with the book. So the book, okay. It’ll start in September. And we’re going to meet once a month, on a Sunday for two hours. And the idea is to read a chapter, sometimes more than one chapter, this 15 chapters in the book, so each month, and when we come together, I’ll present some of the material from it and guide people through some experiential exploration. Probably from the book because there’s quite a few in the book. And then, you know, we’ll have time for discussion and questions and such. So, you know, a few for people who want company going through the book or some guidance Or just want to be able to talk to me about it. You know, that’s a really nice way to do it. And I also teach continuum online, a three hour continuum class once a month. So my next one. It’s July the 18th. It’s called finding fetal fluidity on land. And yeah, you know, what happens when we start to stand up? And I will be playing with gravity? Oh, great. In a very fluid fetal kind of way.
35:41
So interested in Gravity? Yeah. Fluid adventures and gravity. Fluid adventures in gravity. That’s right. Usually the fluid is not part of the gravity conversation. So we need to include that. Yeah. fetal making it fluid fetal. Now, you’re, you’re really covering the basis. So that’s, that sounds fabulous. And how do people contact you? Yeah. How can we connect?
36:12
Well, I have two websites. One of them is my website, which is very good. life.org birthing, birthing your language. And the other is the online school for Franklin and me, which is resourcing your life.org. And I must have the courses I offer through resourcing your life.org. But they’re all listed on my website, breathing your life.org. And you can also contact me through my website. Okay. I love to hear from people.
36:47
So I’ll definitely put those websites up on the on the podcast notes. And, you know, when I get referrals, I’ll send them your way. Before we, we end, we used to do that in our continuum classes. Emilie would say who wants the last word? So do you have any last words before we find them today?
37:15
I’m just feeling sad. I’ve really enjoyed doing this with you. And it’s fun, huh? Yeah. I remember, you know, Emilie wanted us to do something together. So good. We thought it was gonna be a retreat on the Mediterranean. But you know, this is the next best
37:33
thing, you know, you never know. I was checking out Greece, in November of 2019. And went to the aesculapian temple, and it was like, wow, this is possible, you know, so you never know. Maybe someday. someday. Yeah. But in the meantime, were connected and our fluid bodies are, you know, it’s like, just continually looking out exploring, feeling. Yeah. So we’ll, we’ll just go with that for now. And I want to thank you so much for joining us today. And I wish you the very best Good luck in the book, and your teaching. And we’ll see each other again soon, I’m sure.
38:18
Yeah. And thank you, Sam. I also, if I could say one more thing. I really appreciate what you’re doing. I mean, that, you know, you’re also bringing so many things together, and thank you. I wish I had an eye doctor like you.
38:33
Yeah, they’re hard to come by. But no, it’s slowly changing. But yeah, so anyway, we’ll stay connected and I look forward to our next time together. Me too. Thank you to be continued to continue. Thank you for listening. I hope you learned something from the EyeClarity podcast show today. If you enjoyed the episode, make sure to subscribe on iTunes or Spotify and leave a review. see you here next time.
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